Watt's the Word - An Electrical Industry Podcast

Navigating COVID-19 with Neil Moffatt

November 01, 2021 Neil Moffatt Episode 8
Watt's the Word - An Electrical Industry Podcast
Navigating COVID-19 with Neil Moffatt
Show Notes Transcript

Neil Moffat of Canem Systems Ltd. shares with us how they navigated the COVID-19 pandemic safely and effectively. From service vans with one person to sites with over 1000, we explore how COVID has affected and changed the daily operations of an electrical contracting company. This was all possible through planning of logistics and effective communication with the field staff.

Support the show

Connect with us on Instagram or Facebook - @wattsthewordpodcast

Zack Hartle:

Welcome back to another episode of Watt's the Word and electrical industry podcast. I am your host, Zack Hartle, and I am joined as always by Jason Cox. We're very excited for our episode today. Jason, who do we have on the show today?

Jason Cox:

Our guest today, Zack is Neil Moffat. Neil is the Director of Health, Safety and Environment at Cannon systems limited. He's the vice president of the Electrical Contractors Association, executive board. He's the presiding officer of the Alberta provincial apprenticeship committee. He's the past chair of the Alberta Construction Safety Association. He's got a gold seal. And he's a National Construction Safety Officer.

Zack Hartle:

That is quite the list of credentials. And I couldn't think of anyone more qualified to be here today to talk about COVID. So right, we're right in the middle of a fourth wave, we just want to get into a little bit about how a company such as CanAm systems or any electrical contractor operates through COVID, and how COVID is going to affect things and change their operations. So I guess with that, let's jump into our episode.

Jason Cox:

Today, we're joined by Neil Moffat, Neil, welcome to Watt's the Word.

Neil Moffatt:

Hey, thanks for having me, Jason.

Jason Cox:

Neil, you've been involved in the electrical industry for over 35 years now, your area of expertise is safety. How has workplace safety changed over the last decade?

Neil Moffatt:

Well, it's it's certainly moving forward, you know, starting to look at different ways of recognizing and identifying hazards. Certainly, you know, an individual or a company safety record, certainly has a much more significant part to play in their ability to, to win projects than it was 15/20 years ago. You know, there's certificate of recognition programs that are out there, across all of the different provinces, Alberta is certainly not an exception. And so it's about ongoing, continuous improvement. And, you know, looking for ways to looking for better ways to educate people on how to recognize and, and mitigate the hazards that they do come across on a daily basis.

Jason Cox:

So part of my next question would be, have the attitudes changed over the last 10 years? And I think you've already answered or that so it sounds like your customers are taking safety into account when they're looking for contractors?

Neil Moffatt:

Most definitely, you know, I mean, like everything else, you know, it has to have an impetus. And certainly, clients are much more demanding now than they were before. I think you see more of a difference now between public company versus a private company in terms of, of what some of their expectations might be that they're looking for. So for sure, those attitudes have changed on the front end. And that's all a part that leads into whether or not you're successful in getting a job. Right. I think the other the other piece of the puzzle, very important piece of the puzzle is the individual attitude of, of workers on the job sites, and certainly, in the last 10 to 15 years, there's, there's been a big change there as well. You know, I think that it's pretty commonplace now, to see things like mandatory glove programs, mandatory eye protection programs, that type of thing. You didn't see those 2025 years ago, you see them now. You know, a lot of the and I think that the attitude of the the attitudes and the expectations of the younger generations that are making their way in the industry has changed as well. You know, I think that society has done a pretty good job of, of bringing safety forward as a as a number one concern for people in you know, in their daily lives. So I think younger people now have a higher expectation of the ability to be able to work in a safe environment and then then they did 2025 years ago.

Jason Cox:

Excellent. Yeah, that really answers but that was the second part of my question was have the attitude change with the workers To in very interesting the comment of working for a public versus private contractor that, obviously everyone is accountable. But when you're a publicly traded company that that makes sense as well.

Neil Moffatt:

Yeah, well, I'm you know, I mean, a publicly traded company is basically he gets the direction from from a board. And certainly, you know, these boards and the people that are on these boards, you know, I mean, they're, their number one motive, their number one driver is to, you know, ensure that the business has in place the things that will protect the best interests of that business and position it for growth, and continued success.

Zack Hartle:

Hi, Neil. So one of the main reasons we wanted to have you on the show today, obviously, you're a wealth of knowledge, having so much expertise in safety within the trade, but we're in the middle of a fourth wave here, you know, hopefully, it's on the down, turn, but COVID has obviously been one of the biggest challenges you've seen in your role. So maybe, can you just talk a little bit about how you operate during a pandemic, how it really changed your day to day thinking and safety? And we'll kind of start with that, and I'm sure we'll branch off into many more aspects of it.

Neil Moffatt:

Yeah, you know, like, in terms of, you know, did attitudes change in regards to day to day safety, or expectations, or, you know, just general attitudes, I don't think that COVID really has had much effect on that, you know, overall attitude, most definitely COVID has created the opportunity to, and the need to have certain things taken care of, or evaluated in order to continue to operate, you know, the construction industry, as a whole, you know, across the country, and certainly in all the provinces, has done an amazing job of keeping, keeping the lights on, you know, keeping the keeping the keeping the power on keeping the work going. Construction was fortunate enough to be deemed an essential service. So that certainly provided the opportunity for construction workers to continue, continue to work. But most definitely, the part that has changed is what you have to do on a job site, to be able to continue to work in a COVID world. So it hasn't been so much, you know, polishing up, you know, old, old ideas, or old attitudes or that type of thing. It's been about understanding that COVID means that we need to do things differently, we have to assess, we have to have a closer look at if and when our people are working in close proximity to one another. And if they are, then how can they protect themselves. And if they can't protect themselves, then the opposite the opportunity is to revisit how you actually getting some of those tasks done. So I think that, you know, in terms of in terms of how do you do things differently COVID has provided the opportunity for people to look at how they might go about getting everyday tasks done. Certainly the other piece of the puzzle, you know, has been around, you know, how do people interact on that job site. So, you know, it's, you know, the old days or, you know, a typical construction site would be, you know, one site office and, and one site lunch room with a consistent, a consistent lunchtime. What COVID has done is it's forced people to look at things like staggered break times, staggered lunchtimes, in fact, maybe even doubling or tripling the number of break rooms that you might have available on the job site, just so that you can, you know, allow people the opportunity to take their breaks and take their lunch in an environment where you know, they can take their coats off and you know, take their masks off and relax for 15 or 30 minutes and, and have some lunch but do so in an environment that is protected. So, you know, we've got examples of lunch rooms that have barriers. was around individual tables, barriers between individual, you know, lunch stations or that type of thing. So certainly those changes have been the big ones. You know, I think that I think that along with that, you know, you still, I would say for sure that when it first started, everything needed to slow down, because you had to stop doing things the way you were doing it before. So, for the first little bit, there was most definitely, I would say, heightened level of awareness in slowing down, and being aware of what the right way to do things was, and it might take you a little bit longer to get stuff done. Once people got got kind of comfortable with that, then, you know, things started to kind of get back to get back to a normal, or a COVID. Normal, there's no such thing as normal anymore. But there is a COVID normal. So

Zack Hartle:

yeah, one thing you said there that I really I don't know, resonates with me is that it's an opportunity, right COVID is an opportunity. At no point is it isn't a challenge or a barrier, it's just an opportunity to, like you say even assess some of your older safety policies and bring them in line, right, really assess the day to day operations of a site. So I don't I'm using it as an opportunity, I think is a great way to look at it.

Neil Moffatt:

Yeah, for sure. And I think that, you know, people that have been successful with how they've been able to function through COVID is probably due in large part because of maybe that little bit of a shift in attitude, or that type of thing, you know, to try and focus on, you know, spending your time thinking about and talking about, how can we do this safely? How can we improve on this, as opposed to, you know, spending the time complaining about the fact that we have to do something different? Because there's this virus out there that, you know, we really don't know that much about?

Jason Cox:

So, Neil, in your position, right now, you oversee work done in multiple provinces? How is it that you are getting your message out to your field staff, throughout multiple provinces?

Neil Moffatt:

Well, we have, I mean, we have safety coordinators, in each one of our major branches or major areas. So in terms of a conduit, that that's been the conduit that we've used, but you know, if you go back to, you know, how did we decide what the message was going to be, or what the COVID procedures were going to be? At the beginning, that was a really big struggle, because we do operate in five provinces. And right off the get go, there were differences in the provinces in terms of terms of isolation and symptoms, and, you know, the whole the, the whole reporting, of COVID, and, you know, websites and that type of thing. So, what we did early on in the get go, was we went to, we use the Public Health Agency of Canada guidelines, for the most part, to be able to identify, say, you know, items, like the symptoms that we were going to be looking for, you know, on our COVID questionnaires, and that type of thing. We looked at, you know, the differences in the provinces, in terms of, you know, days of isolation that might be required, or anything else like that. And for the most part, we looked for opportunities to be able to, to be able to apply the most stringent, or the highest level of what some of those standards were. So, you know, there was a little bit of an education process. Let's just say, for example, maybe if somebody in BC was looking at, you know, the number of days that you would have to be in, in isolation, versus the number of days in Alberta? Well, I mean, from the get go, the numbers were different. So, you know, when we did settle on the higher number, you know, you got some people in some provinces that, you know, might have said, Well, okay, well, why do we have to do this? Well, at the end of the day, the reason that the driving force between behind everything that we have done with COVID has been about making sure that we're doing everything that is reasonably possible to protect the health of our people. So if that means that we're applying a higher standard Have people in Manitoba than what the Manitoba government would say? Well, so be it. But at the end of the day, we wanted to make sure that we were applying a standard that would provide the greatest level of, of support and or protection to our people across the country. And then And then, and then we communicated that, you know, we put together a safe job procedure that at last count, I think we're on the Ninth Revision of that safe job procedure. It's been an ongoing, living, breathing document. And that is how we have been able to, to spread the message on what is required.

Jason Cox:

I think it's all about information. And it's frustrating, because it is changing constantly. And I mean, like you said, you're dealing with five provinces and five different best practices. So yeah, so yeah, communication would be key to your staff, for sure.

Neil Moffatt:

Yeah. I think that, you know, if you talk about communication, I think that probably the biggest problem, the biggest concern that COVID has has caused is it is basically pitted people against one another, because everybody watches the news, they read the paper, they're reading the tweets, they're, you know, they're doing all this stuff. They're becoming educated. And then there's, you know, the, then there's the conversations, and it's all about what individual's interpretations of the regulations or the restrictions are. So it's been, it's been difficult on all of us, I think, because it's a very personal thing. I mean, even right now, vaccination is a man of the day, it's a personal choice, you know, I mean, you either believe in it, or you don't believe in it, and you're either going to do it or you're not going to do it. So I think that's the biggest problem. Very early on, we developed a process whereby we had individuals identified in each region as a designated tracker. And their job basically was to gather information from people that weren't coming to work, because they were exhibiting symptoms, whether or not they needed testing, or that type of thing. And then, you know, and then interpreting and communicating with those folks on, you know, what their, what their length of isolation might be, or what the next step forward might be, or what the next requirement might be. So early on, we set our, we set up a process whereby we had, you know, all of these discussions around COVID, isolations, and positive, negative and that kind of thing, all of that stuff was being funneled through one individual in a region. And what that allowed us to do was to be able to do as good a job as we possibly could, in ensuring that the message that everybody heard on March, the 16th 2020, was still the same message that they might be hearing. A year later, so a level of consistency. But by having that that designated person in each region who was responsible to gather this information and speak with the workers, it it put us in a in a position of making sure that the information that we were putting out there was consistent so that people heard the same thing from Canada.

Zack Hartle:

Yeah, that's a great point. And there's no question that having that consistent voice and person to go to can be so helpful for everyone, right, especially during the stresses of the pandemic, with so much misinformation out there. Were conflicting information. Now, as we're kind of changing, shifting modes from a restriction locked down into more vaccinations and you know, less restrictions. How are you guys pivoting with all that information now?

Neil Moffatt:

Right now, the conversation is all about understanding what client owner and, you know, maybe some general contractors, what their requirements are in terms of vaccination, and testing, whether they're going to allow it what type you know, is it an accommodation or what have you so that right now the conversation has changed? You know, certainly, certainly at a level in the companies because you've got clients that are, you know, sending a letter Ever since saying, Okay, well, this is our mandatory vaccination requirement as of such and such a date. So, you know, we want you to sign off on this. But then at the end of the day, as an individual contractor, now, it's put us into the position of needing to develop processes, so that we can make people aware of what the requirements are to access a certain site. And in some cases, we might even have to maybe not dispatch somebody to a site, because we know or we're told that they can't meet those vaccination requirements. So certainly in the last month, that has been the focus of the conversation throughout the industry. And it's, you know, it's, it's it, it's, it's just kind of, it's reframing the conversation around, okay, what do we have to do to actually be able to go in there and do some work. And then once we get there, at the end of the day, we're still surviving on the job sites within the same, you know, close, we're close proximity rules, you know, distancing as much as possible, assessing the health of people on a daily basis, you still have, you still have the daily health questionnaires for people to get on sites and that type of thing. But the conversation has definitely changed now where, where the requirement is for you as a company owner, or as a company officer to, to sign off and, you know, basically sign a declaration saying that your people will meet that client's vaccination requirements prior to dispatching into the site.

Jason Cox:

Neil, it seems like the behavior of work tasks and how you would do a job now has to be considered when we're dealing with COVID. I would imagine the COVID PPE wearing a mask and keeping your hands gloves, sanitizers not a problem. How has your response been from your staff? Regarding wearing that PPE and following the standards for hygiene? You know, I

Neil Moffatt:

mean, I think that overall, it's been pretty good. I think that early on, people definitely struggled, because it was something new that needed to happen, especially with the wearing of a mask, I mean, you know, you the only other usually, the only time you wear a mask is when you're in a you know, you're in an environment that has some concerns about oxygen availability, or, you know, quality of the air or that type of thing. But, so certainly people had some struggles with different types of masks. And, and what that, you know, did to them in terms of a being able to breathe, but actually, more importantly, we ended up finding that a lot of people were having issues with safety glasses fogging up. So we actually, you know, had to, you know, took a little bit of time for us to find, you know, the type glasses, or the types of glasses or different types of sprays that would limit or eliminate the fogging of the eyewear while you were wearing the mask. So that that was definitely a bit of a changer, and it definitely, you know, cause some cause some concern for people, I think that you did, you know, you Whereas you might have expected to see somebody wearing their glasses, 20, you know, you know, said, seven out of the eight hours, they were on the job site? Well, with COVID, I think that anytime there was an opportunity to take them off or slip the mask down is something that, that people would do, but certainly if you were ever in close proximity with people, you know, you you got to keep those things on and then it's a matter of, you know, okay, is this the right way? I mean, look at all the discussions about what the right types of masks were, I mean, they, you know, there was do play three, play this, that and everything else. So, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, with this particular virus share, you know, as long as you can control that, those those airborne particles, you're, you're doing something, right, so,

Jason Cox:

and like you were saying our industry is very fortunate that it was able to continue to work during COVID. Right, there was other industries that were shut down. So I think eventually that gets gets to everyone's kind of perspective. We kind of see just how fortunate we are that we can continue to work and, and then obvious See compliance with the safety equipment, whether it's the mask or hygiene, I mean, it just makes sense. As far as, hey, you're still trying to make a paycheck?

Neil Moffatt:

Yeah. And you know what I mean, I think that, you know, in terms of the benefit, or, you know, you know, should people have been working, I mean, a lot of people that a lot of people that were affected by COVID, in a negative manner, when it came to their employment, some people lost their jobs completely. I mean, in construction, at least, we were able to, to, to maintain that and keep that going. And I mean, the construction industry as a whole, certainly not just us, but as a whole, you know, across all the different trades and all the different disciplines and stuff like that. And, you know, I think that you have to, we have to tip our hats off to, to the folks that, you know, we're, you know, supervisors and leaders and workers in those companies, because at the end of the day, throughout this 20 months of COVID, that has been, you know, I, I think that you could make a case that the safest place for somebody was at work, because it at work, in order for you to keep working, you had to have specific processes or protocols in place, outside of work, you know, it's pretty easy to let your guard down, you know, and do some stuff that are maybe outside of the restrictions, or maybe not, or, you know, maybe just let your guard down a little bit. So, you know, you know, I think that at the end of the day, you know, our experience throughout COVID, I think that we might have identified one, one particular instance, where the virus itself was maybe contracted or, you know, transmitted from the site, everything else was coming from off site, into the job site. So that I mean, that's, that's not exactly 100%, either, because you could have that argument for forever trying to determine where, where something might have actually transmitted

Zack Hartle:

from, yeah, that the tracing of the source of the virus is something that I mean, we'll never get 100% For sure. When you when that does happen, when there is confirmed cases on sites, I mean, I'm sure it shifted a little bit throughout the pandemic, but how were outbreaks or transmissions on a site or brought in from a site? How are those dealt with?

Neil Moffatt:

Well, again, I mentioned earlier that we had set up every region with a, what we call the designated tracker. And that person was basically the record keeper and the guidance provider, the resource person, for people on job sites, to let us know what was going on in regards to COVID. And people having symptoms or that type of thing. So what we found, we were basically doing our own contact tracing. So if you have an individual who woke up on Monday morning, and not feeling well phones into the supervisor and says, you know, what, I'm not feeling well, today, I got a cough, I got a runny nose, I got a bit of a fever, you know, that person would immediately then be in contact with the designated tracker, and the designated tracker would you know, capture their information, and, you know, log it. And then, you know, kind of go from there, you know, provide direction on whether or not a test would would be appropriate or not, certainly, there's far less testing going on now than there has been over the past year. Just because of the the nature of you know, vaccinations and a certain percentage of people being vaccinated. There's not as much testing going on now. But if you look at, you know, so what happened when somebody tested positive so. So if somebody tests positive, then we would have already been in contact with them. In most cases, for people that were asymptomatic and then testing positive, certainly, the positive test would be the first time that we would be aware of what was going on. But because we were doing our own contact tracing and stuff like that, then we would then be trying to understand whether or not people had close contacts or not, who they were, what areas of a job site they worked in on certain days. And then we would let their co workers know and say, okay, just to let you know, a co worker of yours has tested positive, it appears that you might have been And close contact with him over the last couple of days or whatever, monitor yourself, you know, you either a, you know, you've got to isolate right away, because that's the way that it kind of used to be. And now that isolation is kind of gone away for for close contact, but I'm probably doing a really crappy job of explaining how we did our own contact tracing. But, but in large part because of what we were doing, we were doing and gathering information at a rate that was far quicker than any of the other provincial contact tracing authorities could do. And on numerous occasions, from every, from all of the different provincial health authorities that we were dealing with, when we got into situations where we need to speak with where we needed to speak with them, they were very, very impressed and very, very satisfied, and pleased to hear that the contact tracing that we were doing, of our own, was in itself, very, very complete and made their job an awful lot easier as well,

Zack Hartle:

that phone call to the foreman in the morning, feeling a little bit sick, it's a much different phone call today than it was 10 years ago, because 10 years ago would have been I come to work, but

Neil Moffatt:

and you know, Jack, hey, you know, I mean, you're absolutely bang on there. Because that is one of the things that, you know, early on, needed to start changing in and it's that attitude about people calling in sick. And, you know, and whether or not you're talking about, you know, the hourly guy working on the job site, or whether you're talking about the salaried person working in the office, there's no doubt that, you know, we've, we had a pretty proud history of, you know, showing up to work every day, or, you know, and maybe a little bit of a cough or a little bit of this or whatever. But on the flip side of that, there's an awful lot of supervisors and bosses out there that, you know, kind of, you know, had the attitude that really, you're sick again, you know, or, or that type of thing. Well, that is had to change, you know, and we had to, we had to let supervisors know that the message that we were communicating to our people, whether they were our earlier staff, it didn't really matter was, you know, the game has changed. If you're not feeling well, stay home, call in, let us know, if appropriate, then we'll put you in contact with the designated tracker. And then we're going to follow this through so that you get the right type of help, or the right number of days or whatever, that you can, you know, feel better. So it's about removing that that stigma associated with, you know, Oh, sick again.

Zack Hartle:

Okay, yeah, power through, get her done, no matter what it takes days are clearly coming to an end.

Jason Cox:

Neal, is there any process or procedure that you guys have picked up during COVID, that you guys would probably continue to use moving forward, hopefully, after the COVID crisis is over,

Neil Moffatt:

I think that we are definitely going to start looking at how we get jobs done, or how we assign tasks differently. Because we've seen that some tasks that we might have gotten used to having more than one person do them, maybe only one person needs to do them. So I think that some of those types of attitudes or those types of work, changes in, in in work processes are probably going to be the ones that that will change. You know, I'm I'm really hopeful that at some point in time, we will be able to stop producing proof of vaccination or a vaccine passport. I mean, right now, there seems to be about 10 or 12 of those things out there. So I, you know, I would like to think that at some point, we'll, we'll get past that. But I do think that the opportunity to have a look at how we're getting the work done. Is is going to change and maybe more so in the you know, in the administration or on the company, you know, salaried staff type of thing. COVID has presented an opportunity for people to take a really hard look at the work processes that they do have, and whether or not they'll work processes are those work functions have to be performed by somebody in a physical space in an office, as opposed to working from home. And again, I throw it out there as the opportunity, because that's the way to kind of have a look at it. But I do think that you're going to see people make some changes in how they do that and identify different types of roles that don't necessarily need to be performed by somebody occupying a 12 by 12. Office in an industrial park somewhere. So I, you know, I think that you're going to see a little bit of the, I think you'll see some companies that will do, will have more of their work functions conducted remotely.

Jason Cox:

Neil, is there a significant difference in how you guys are treating COVID, looking at the perspective of your workers going in on a massive construction site, and then also your workers, maybe in a service van going into an establishment?

Neil Moffatt:

I think that the only difference would really be on the scale of what is in place, whether it was a large construction site or a small service site, customers building or whatever, or whatever, there would be either paper questionnaire that would have to be completed, or some kind of an electronic version, that would be more applicable in a in a large case scenario.

Jason Cox:

And so is that slowing down the process for workers to get into big job sites? Or is it is it is it a pretty quick process?

Neil Moffatt:

For the most part, it's a very quick process, it's certainly quicker now than it was when it was first brought in. You know, I mentioned earlier that, you know, we had to look at things like staggering, lunchtime, staggering break times, we also had to look at things like staggering break times, especially on the larger sites, so that you didn't have everybody showing up at the same time. You know, if you, you know, as a larger site, like the cancer center, we have, you know, a couple 100 people there, well, you can, you know, maybe only have, you only have 80 of them showing up, but at one time, and then another ad and then another ad and then another ad. So, those were changes that needed to be made.

Jason Cox:

In on those big job sites, when you're coming in the gates in the morning, was the general contractor, the one that was kind of looking at each of the contractors, or did you guys kind of take care of your trade, plumbers took care of their trade,

Neil Moffatt:

on the larger job sites where somebody has been designated as the prime contractor than they were the ones that were doing that because that they're in control as the prime contractor they're in control are responsible for the site from the client. Excellent.

Zack Hartle:

You know, Neil, thanks so much for coming and chatting with us here about COVID. And I mean, I'm sure it's been a hectic and busy 20 ish months for you now. So really appreciate you taking the time just to come share with us and the few people who are listening, hear your experiences and how it's affected your work. So we appreciate it.

Neil Moffatt:

Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you.

Zack Hartle:

Thanks so much to everyone for listening in on our conversation with Neil Moffat. That was a pretty timely episode to get in some experience in dealing with COVID out there in the industry. And I definitely learned a lot. And Jason, I'm wondering what are some of your takeaways from the show?

Jason Cox:

One of the takeaways I got from that episode, Zach was that Neil's company was working with the five provinces with their health boards for the contact tracing so so it was interesting to see that their initiative to keep their staff working actually benefited the contact tracers and each of the provinces. Health Department.

Zack Hartle:

Yeah, love to hear that to how that little bit of initiative kept that that clear message for all their employees, right. Boys spread out over five provinces getting that clear message right now. It's just without a doubt one of the most important things right to avoid that misinformation and confusion. So it's glad to hear about that. Also glad to say that Neil is likely going to come back on the show to talk a little bit more about the provincial apprenticeship committee or actually what it will soon be called once the dust settles on Bill 67. Some new legislation passed here in Alberta which has huge, overarching changes to the electrical trade and apprenticeship training as a whole so I'm really excited to have him back to chat about that.

Jason Cox:

Yeah, Zack this bill 67 It's gonna be a game changer. That's what everyone keeps telling us. So when the dust settles, Neil is exactly the kind of person we're looking for in our episode. He's passionate about the industry. He's been volunteering with our industry for years. And I think it'd be very interesting to see when the bill is adopted just what changes those are going to have on apprenticeship, and especially the electrical trade.

Zack Hartle:

Absolutely. And you know what, I think that's everything we have for this week. So I just want to thank everybody who came to listen today. We are so glad to have you. Please share the show with a friend. Let them know if you like it. Of course you know, you can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify, Google. Leave us a review, let us know what you think. And as always, keep yourself safe out there. And if you can someone else to