Zack Hartle: 0:00

Hello and welcome to Watt's the Word a podcast connecting the electrical trade and industry members. I'm Zack Hartle, along with Jason Cox. We're having relevant and informative conversations with members of our industry. Before we get started today, I just want to remind all of you. Please subscribe to get future episodes wherever you listen to podcasts, leave us a review, and most importantly, share this with a friend who you think might be valuable. So Jason Watt's the Word on the show today.

Jason Cox: 0:29

Well, Zack, our topic today is long term injuries associated with electrical shock. And we're pleased to be joined by John Knoll, master electrician and advocate for the awareness of electrical injuries resulting from shocks. So welcome to the show, John.

John Knoll: 0:49

Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys.

Zack Hartle: 0:50

Yeah, thanks for being here. John. Really excited about the topic today. Right long term injuries associated with electrical shock, right. All electricians kind of face that hazard of shock almost every day when we're out in the field. But before we jump into that, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into the electrical industry itself.

John Knoll: 1:13

Oh, well, I started in construction in grade 10. Every summer I go work in water and sewer. And then right after high school, I was asked by my brother to go up to Fort McMurray. And I did that for a few months until I was told a phone call by my mother and she had cancer. And that's when I moved back to Edmonton to be closer with her and moved in with one of my best friends. And his brother was an electrician. And I just decided to get into the trade that way. I started with a company when I was 18. And I lasted I was a year with that company. And right away again shocks happened. There was really no safety in that company. We did ladder training. We used to play games of turning the light switches on guys, when they were installing lights. The people that were running the crews were only first years and three months into the trade I was deemed a competent person. And I got brought down into the parkade with very old journeyman who again really didn't enforce electrical safety. I was told red block blue light and I started wiring parkades I did a majority of the parkades for that company. Again, using my own vehicle taking company materials came to picking company ladders across town not getting paid for gas. About a year into or nine months into that company. They gave me a finals work van. And I went and started doing finals. And again, there was really no electrical safety there. And then I started roughing in homes and I went to school. When I got back out of school, I switched to another company and started running my own crews. I ran the residential division for that company both too close to my going into my second period of school, I started renovating a grant and school downtown, I did a third of the renovations by myself, the bosses wouldn't come to help. And I just kind of went that way with that company never really working with a journeyman all the way up until I was a fourth year I built ATB financial in Windermere by myself. And then it was around that time that the company had laid off my best friend who was running their residential division now. And we kind of had enough of it, we went to work union. And that was the first time we actually were taught Electrical Safety was working in the union. And the focus was on arc flush. It wasn't shocked. And by that time, we had already been shocked probably 100 times or more just low voltage shocks. I had already experienced the quality of this injury, the first real medical records, I have go back to 22,007 When I was a second year, and I was able to get over that by doing yoga by doing a lot of exercise. But I thought I had arthritis early on at that age.

Jason Cox: 4:09

If we could go back just for a second. There's there's you hit on a whole bunch and this word, so I'm going to try this again. Sue qualia, right. Like this is a new word.

John Knoll: 4:21

Sequela

Jason Cox: 4:22

Sequela. Thank you and so so I looked that up and I mean what that what is that word that that word is a condition that it's a consequence of a previous injury. So so what you're you're kind of jumping into here we talked about two things right off the bat. So there's consequences from from you being shocked in the past. So that's what of course what we want to talk about today. And then another big thing that that you've mentioned here right away as you spent a large amount of your apprenticeship unsupervised

John Knoll: 4:55

the majority of my apprenticeship was unsupervised I swear I only had journeyman supervise me three months out of the entire four years I was an apprentice I was self teaching myself most everything's most everything, even down to when I was building the KFC Taco Bell on Ellerslie road I had was a second or third year at that time, and I had asked my bosses to help me with the makeup air interlock. I was told that was just something you figured out on your own. So I did that my entire career, I figured everything else

Jason Cox: 5:27

out looks like we have two two big issues here today, our topic of electrical shock awareness. And then of course, just the supervision of an apprenticeship. We we understand we know what the rules are, but we know how reality takes place. But yeah, it sounds like yeah, there was a lot of let's just say independence there. That's that's just, that's, I mean, every company is different. So Wow.

John Knoll: 5:55

That was always an independent guy growing up. And again, I was young, I didn't know any better. I was always the guy that would do anything. I was a hard worker, and quite frankly, at the companies took advantage of it. I was the cheapest form of labor they had. And I could do the work that other guides, you know, couldn't. And I think the unsafe as part of electrical right now is residential. And that's where primary primarily a lot of my apprenticeship was is residential until I opened up a basically started the commercial division for a company that started off in residential.

Jason Cox: 6:35

Yeah, that's like you said, you mentioned earlier that the safety programs that you were introduced to in industry happened when you when you hit the industrial side is clearly as you know, a different beast when you go on to a massive industrial site versus a residential installation. Right. Yeah, just totally different situation there. But I think I think it comes down to not not, I understand your point, totally, because I've worked in all three areas, or even more areas of our trade than that. But a lot of times it does come down to the people you're working with too, right? I've I've worked with some very safe people in residential, commercial and industrial. And of course, there's also been those other lets other people that that maybe aren't as informed or careful for sure. Can we talk about just some of the side effects that you've that you've discovered? It doesn't have to be personally but even in your research, what are some of the side effects to being shocked?

John Knoll: 7:48

Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pull up medical review that our government actually developed. So this is a review that was developed by two doctors that work with WCB, Alberta. And it was a summary of the literature that they had done on a claim and instead of actually bringing this to the awareness of the public, they wrote a small memo for WCB and then published this finding, and it's a very good article. So in table one of the article, there's a plethora of symptoms that the injured, experienced and myself, I've probably experienced 95% of these, so I'm just going to quickly go through them the psychological symptoms that you can experience after a shock and as this article states can take one to five plus years to develop, so you'll prick your finger today, and a half a decade later, you might start experiencing this stuff. Those psychological symptoms or depression, post traumatic stress disorder, insomnia, nightmares, anxiety, flashbacks, fear of electricity, electricity, frustration, hyper arousal, panic attacks, low self esteem, guilt, moodiness, memory loss or impairment, increased temper, reduced attention span per verbal learning. Now there's also neurological symptoms which include memory loss, numbness, headache, chronic pain, weakness per concentration. A couple that I will explain perithecia CinemaScope I can't pronounce these quote rate, loss of balance gait at Stasia Stasia, carpal tunnel, seizure disorders Disneys, poor coordination, tinnitus, tremors, and then you also have the physical symptoms which are generalized pain, fatigue exhaustion, reduced range of motion contracture periphery theus muscle spasms, twitches and aches, headaches, migraines, night sweats, fevers, chills and joint stiffness. And I'll just explain a couple of the ones that I couldn't pronounce quite well. So perithecia is an abnormal sensation tip requires tingling or pricking pins and needles cause from this injury you have skin nope, which is temporary loss of consciousness Cost Consciousness caused by a fallen blood pressure, your gait x, x tayshia, which is defined as the presence of abnormal uncoordinated movement movements. skysea, which is pain affecting the back hip and outer side of the leg caused by compression on the spinal roof, new spinal nerve root and the lower back. Tinnitus is when you experienced ringing and other noises in one or both of your ears, you have contracture, which is a cord condition of shortening and hardening of muscles, tendons and other tissues. I've had guys told me, this explains why I can't play the guitar anymore. You also have periapsis, which is severe itching of the skin. As you can tell, there's quite a plethora of symptoms that the injured experience. And you might not experience these all at once. For me, these started developing very early on in the trade, and they've only got worse since they haven't increased in severity since I stopped performing work in the trade and obviously stop receiving shocks.

Jason Cox: 11:17

Yeah, well, I look. So the list that you just gave us. I mean, I read that review. And yeah, we're looking at over 40 symptoms. So back in the day myself, I would have thought the consequence of an electrical shock would have been a burn. We are not talking about burns. Today, we're talking about 40 other things. And as I read through these articles, I started to question myself, I'm like, geez, I wonder, right? Because I have like, I've been in the trade for over 25 years, and I've taken several shocks, somewhere my own fault. Some of course weren't. But you start to question some of those things like, like, am I getting old do I hurt from from old age? Or could this possibly be from from taking a poke at a certain time.

John Knoll: 12:13

And for me, I was only 20 years old when I made the earliest metal medical records that I found was a chiropractor intake, where I had indicated that I thought I had arthritis, where I had diffuse pain throughout my entire body. I had headaches, migraines, I had fatigue, I had 90% of the symptoms indicated on that chiropractor intake, and that was in 2007, I was 20 years old, I shouldn't have been feeling like that I had scored a 25% out of 100 on my functional exam that day. So that's the problem is this injury, you prick your finger, and you develop the symptoms later.

Zack Hartle: 12:56

I think that's the most alarming and thing that also makes it maybe the most difficult to diagnosis, everybody's body is going to react a little bit differently, the timeframe from shock to symptoms is going to be a little bit different for everybody. And I that's part of why what the what you're doing right now with raising this awareness and coming and talking about your experience is so huge, right? I mean, the more people that have this conversation and get involved in this topic with, you know, whether it be through a Contractors Association, or whether it be just talking with other people, it can make a huge difference, right. And

John Knoll: 13:34

so, I wanted to touch base because you had talked, you thought that shocks the primary mechanism would be the thermal Burke's. The research actually states that that's not the primary mechanism. The primary mechanism is a process called electroporation, which is commonly used in gene therapy. So if you want to do gene therapy, you go to a doctor's office, and they inject the fluid into the area that you want to perform that therapy on. And then they send a tiny current through your body, and it opens up the pores in your membranes. And then it allows that solution to get into your cells and do what it's supposed to do. But the problem is when you receive that shock in a field, those pores open up in your cell membranes, and there's not a concentration of controlled fluid around your cells, you have a concentration of a lot of sodium and other things that are surrounding those cells and the sodium gets into those cells. And it can disrupt how those cells send their signals and receive their signals. And depending on the energy of the shock, higher voltage shocks having more energy, those cells can die instantaneously. So you could have instantaneous cell death like some people I've heard of where they receive a high voltage shock and they lose the ability to move the entire left side of their body. They can't see out of the left eye They can't talk, they can't move their arm, their legs are you kind of guys like me that get lots of low voltage shocks and those cells seal up. But as they're sealing up, expends a lot of energy and you get the fatigue. And then like me, those cells are susceptible, susceptible to further damage from further injuries. And for me, I was walking down Vegas and my legs gave out it was the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. And that was due to a decade of shock exposure.

Zack Hartle: 15:32

Maybe we could take just one second and talk about what what do you mean when you talk about the difference between low voltage and high voltage? What voltage ranges are we talking about?

John Knoll: 15:42

Low voltage can be as low as 30 volts. Doctors wouldn't like batteries. I've been told the keynote speech my diagnosing Doctor Doctor. Yes, he said he would not like a battery. 30 volts is our safe voltage that we call in Canada. I think it's either 30 or 50. Ones 30 in the stage 150 Here, I think. But for me, most of my shocks were 120 volts, the highest shock I've ever received was 347.

Zack Hartle: 16:12

Yeah, so for us, our codebook currently would be 30 to 750 volts going up to 1000 volts in the new codebook. But so yeah, that just wanted to, you know, everyone kind of has a different opinion on what high voltage low voltage means. So that's, that's good.

John Knoll: 16:30

I'm glad you asked that. He said that though. Because medically it was 1000 volts. So I think we've finally aligned with the medical definition of low voltage which is 1000 volts and under.

Zack Hartle: 16:42

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. After all the shocks. And I've, I've heard a bit of your story. I know that when you left the Wii U and your I think it might have even been you and your friend, you guys started your own company. Or maybe not with him, but and then there came a point where your injury made it so that you could no longer function and run that company. Is that when you started to look into different medical services that are available through the medical system are started to look into WCB? How did that kind of journey look trying to get help?

John Knoll: 17:16

Well, the problem is, again, we had published or our government had done their research and their doctors had published a medical review in 2013. In 2017, we still had not known about this medical review, I had no clue what was happening and being the dumb stoical burden that I was. I knew how to fix this injury. Because I've had this before, doctors had told me I was healthy as a horse. So I wasn't going to doctors. In 2017, I had just sold my company for up for a very good price, six figures. And I again decided this, nobody knows what's happening. I know how to fix this. And I went to yoga, I went to I did yoga, every single day, I went to the chiropractor to three times a week, I went for massages, you know, one to two times a week. And I got to a point where I was back to feeling normal. But I had started opening up a security company trying to know that I couldn't do the heavy tool work that maybe I could do the light tool work. But at that time, I didn't realize that the effects were not only physical, they were neurological. You have memory loss, you get frustrated. You just can't do everything that you used to be able to do. It wasn't actually until last year in 2020 that a member Terry Becker of the Electrical Contractors Association had made me aware of him going to Australia and hearing about the work that the Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto was doing through a doctor named Dr. Joel fish. And he told me this has to be your problem. He had sent an email to another CSA staff member on the Standards Committee for electrical safety and they had sent me a ton of information back including the information on Sunnybrook, but as well, the Alberta medical review on electrical injury, it's titled titled long term sequelae of electrical injury. And at that moment, when I read that, I finally admitted this has to be my issue. And that's when I went to WCB for help. And it's been the hardest, longest journey of my life to get through.

Jason Cox: 19:40

It really seems like you're you. I mean, I mean, we don't know who was before you. But recently it sounds like you're the one that's paving the way and bringing this to everyone's attention. Just for for people that are listening Sunnybrook Hospital it's an Ontario correct

John Knoll: 20:00

Yep, so Toronto, I'm diagnosed by Dr. Mark Gaskey. He is rated number two in the world and burns an electrical injury. And he's the head of Research at Sunnybrook Hospital. And he's the director of the largest Burn Ward, the busiest Burn Ward in Canada. And that's where I got my diagnosis through. Despite that, and having a second opinion from the only other hospital that performs research and rehabilitation in this injury, a Dr. Lee, who is a Harvard graduated surgeon, and MIT graduated by an electrical engineer, my claims are still going on to the Decision Review body within WCB. They don't want to admit this injury exists. Once they admit it for me, they have to help everyone else. Part of the men that are in the group that I formed, there's a man that has had 60% burns across his body from arc flash, but he's not getting help for the shock. That muscle stiffness that I talked about, in the symptoms, he can't move his arms. And they're not helping him. They say that he doesn't need massage, he doesn't need chiropractor. And I'm not the only one. When I actually first started my claim. I had help getting it because there's a section 26 and WCB. Up until this year is if you hadn't made a claim within two years, it became a process to get in now. It's only a one year. So you have a one year to make a claim in WCB on an injury that can take five plus years to develop. So when I got my first denial letter, they said oh, no, sorry, you didn't. You didn't talk about this within two years. And they only actually cited half of 20 seconds, section 26. They completely violated one of their mandates of providing complete and full information. It wasn't until that I contacted friends in the industry, that I found an advocate that would actually help me and he read through that decision letter. And he understood how poorly it was written. And he helped me get in through section 26. But at that time, I didn't understand why he told me, You're never going to get help for this. You're never going to get a diagnosis. You're never going to go to Sunnybrook. And now I finally understand.

Jason Cox: 22:21

Well, it sounds like like it's a it's a new phenomena or injury. Not I mean, obviously for the electricians, but even just for the medical community. And then the associated groups like W WCB, as well. We've seen over the last 20 years, just how our industries had to change. 20 years ago, we didn't talk about this thing called Arc Flash. Right? So arc flash is something new to us. And industry has now adopted and now recognized and starting to make changes for that. It looks like this is the next step is that we need to get more information out now about the effects the possible health effects from electrical shock. And oh my goodness, I've put countless batteries on my tongue over the years. And if doctors are telling me not to do that, I probably won't do that anymore. It probably wasn't a good idea in the first place. So so so yeah, we need to move forward. And we need to get the information out so good for you. I mean, obviously, we know why you're motivated, but thankfully you are going to be helping other people.

John Knoll: 23:38

Yeah, it's funny that you're talking about arc flash, because both these injuries started being researched around the same time. So Terry Becker, who's kind of the Electrical Contractors Association safety person of choice, in 1996, is when arc flash really started getting recognition. But at the same time, that's when both the Chicago electrical trauma Research Institute and the Sunnybrook Hospital started doing their research into the invisible effects of shock. It was in 2013, when the Electrical Safety Authority out of Ontario was made aware of this, and it was the work of Dr. yassky and another patient. That's the reason that if you live in Ontario, you can actually get your doctor to fill out a medical form and you can go to Sunnybrook Hospital and get help. It's the only place in the country that you can get help and because healthcare is provincial, the rest of the country is Sol basically, you know, I was very fortunate that I could get the diagnosis I did but it's because of the life that I lived prior to my 30s You know, my early involvement in the electrical trade and the fact that I opened the company and I was successful and then that I had tried tried to transition to soft jobs. So that was one of the key factors that played into the medical community instantly saying it's obvious this man has this injury. You know, it's we all experience it differently. But it's all kind of the same story.

Jason Cox: 25:17

The conditions would be different for every person. And as far as a provincial medical system versus a federal, I mean, Canada, we've seen that over the last year and a half with COVID. It's frustrating that, that there's different rules for different provinces, and yet we're all the same. We're all Canadians. So it is frustrating. I guess moving forward, we really took a we're really changed course in the electrical industry with with the rules regarding arc flash, but we now have to also, I mean, obviously, with Arc Flash, we had to have different work rules based on the energy levels, right, it seems now that we really need to start applying those rules, and safe work practices, not just for the potential arc flash, right, but the electrical shock hazard is far. That electrical shock, the percentage of you getting shocked is far far far higher than the electrical arc flash. So we need to start making some changes in how we operate as tradespeople.

John Knoll: 26:30

Completely agree. And I'm very thankful for the CSA Z, I think it's the Z462. And the Z463 groups, Terry Becker's a member of them and that entire community, we is the reason that we actually, for the first time in 2021, have to have electrical safety programs throughout Canada, you can't be an electrical employer. Now, without having an electrical safety program in place. It's the first time in history. And it is key. As if I could ever go back and work in the electrical trade on the tools, I would never touch an energized circuit unless I had to. And I would be wearing my let my rubber insulated gloves with leather protectors, I would never change a plug don't live again in my life. Just knowing what can happen to you, you know, prick your finger one day, use the loose use the use of your legs, years later.

Jason Cox: 27:30

Yeah, we, I mean, things have changed so much over the years, just the whole idea of we used to do everything hot. And we were told this is how, how we were going to isolate and make ourselves safe. However, when when arc flash became a reality, then that definitely promoted de energizing circuits. You're right, there's, there's very little excuse now for us to be working on things live. And I was doing just a little bit of research on on rubber gloves and leather protectors. And I mean, you can have that those tools, which I mean that PPE for a lower price than your safety boots. So yeah, so I mean, yes, you're going to have to go into a panel and you are going to have to take a meter reading, and you are going to have to clamp on and read a current. So now all it's going to, all we need to do now is we have to observe the the arc flash requirements and then also be prepared for the shock hazard.

John Knoll: 28:41

100%. And I, you know, I'm not going to toot my own horn. But this is the first year that we're going to start introducing electrical shock, safety and arc flash safety into the apprenticeship by MLMs. I found out actually they were trying to carry had tried to introduce them in 2015. But because nobody knew about the consequences of electrical shock, then the street turned them down. Nobody wanted to teach that shock was dangerous or how to avoid it. Because nobody knew what was happening. And I want to go back to that 2013 Medical Review that our government had paid for, at least paid for the research for and if we would have had that brought to our attention, we would have had shocked safety back in 2015. That would have been accepted. Because as soon as I found out about this, and I had sent my diagnosis to everybody I knew it Nate. They had approached Terry again and said yeah, let's put this in and they didn't know.

Zack Hartle: 29:42

Then that's that's absolutely huge right getting that information into the classroom right into the apprenticeship model right. They can talk about it and first year they can really start addressing it in school, which hopefully will lead to more journeyman being out in the field. understanding the importance of all that the potential hazards, right? I mean, talking about being safe is one thing. But I think the thing that people need to see is why do we need to follow these steps, right? What are the potential consequences? And that's something I always had in the field was okay, when you're doing this work, you need this safety, this safety, this safety? Well, but why, like, what's the, what's the reasoning behind some of the stuff? So I think getting that into the curriculum, like you say, into our apprenticeship training, there's it's going to be huge, right. And as you said, the apprenticeship outline, which is potentially getting updated in the next, I don't know, probably 18 months based on rumor, from what I've heard. Yeah, it's a lot more safety based on shock. And arc flash is getting updated in there. So I think that's a huge step in the right direction.

Jason Cox: 30:50

I honestly, when I first started doing arc flash awareness, I just had flashbacks of all the electrical jobs that I had done, where we had done live work, and and we were told that we would do it live, and we did everything in our power to do it as safe as possible. Never once did we ever think at the time that there was this risk of arc flash, right. I back in the day, I mean, the three of us have done certain tasks in in the electrical industry, where we were isolated and did not make contact with an electrical circuit, because we were on a ladder, or we were just touching the insulation of the conductor, and we were safe. But we had no idea of the possible side effects. And the side effect of being shocked in that old attitude that we used to have this macho, oh, you just took a little poke that's nothing get back to work. Well, I mean, that's just ignorance on on everyone's part. And we now we now need to become more informed and make some changes.

John Knoll: 32:00

Well, the scariest part is, is back in the 60s and electricians handbook, it was taught that you could test for voltage 240 volts and lower with your fingers. That's why I was taught that to finger test myself is because in the 60s, the man that taught me or the man that taught him was taught it was okay. You know, if the scariest part of reading that is in electricians handbook that I read, it even says that you can taste for signal circus. So if you can't feel it through your fingers, you can put it on your tongue.

Jason Cox: 32:34

Yeah, and I've I've also, over the years, I've read the, the testing methods with your fingers and the different voltage levels. And I've never in my life, thought a way to test a circuit was to use my hands, right? Obviously, on every job site, every apprentice, and every trades person should have every electrician, let's not say tradesperson every electrician should have access to a multimeter. And every worker should have at the very least have Voltec or Voltec, whatever we want to test her and and then be able to rely on those things. Those. I mean, that's, that's just like your safety boots now or your safety glasses, you have to have those tools.

Zack Hartle: 33:27

And more importantly, they need the training and how to use those tools effectively. Right, I think we've all seen people not know how to use a voltage tester or a meter correctly. And that can be just as dangerous if not more dangerous than not having one right. So I think that that's also a something that needs addressed is how to use those simple tools, effectively

John Knoll: 33:51

100% I wouldn't, I wouldn't use or rely on a tic test or ever in my life. As you guys mentioned, we're not even taught we weren't taught how to use them correctly. The first time that I learned that you had to go and test a true circuit and then go test your circuit was again in the union. But I've had so many times where you those both texts, they like, you know, I have a wire that was completely dead. But for some reason, every time somebody turns a switch on and off probably through the neutral current, it would light up. I wouldn't trust a TIG tester. And if I was using my voltage meters today, I wouldn't use it without the rubber insulating gloves and the leather protectors one shot can change your life.

Jason Cox: 34:34

Absolutely. And I mean, I unfortunately have two former colleagues that have passed away because directly and indirectly because of electrical incidents. And I know to this day when I when I see someone that that in passing, I say Okay, someone from industry I say okay, well WorkSafe and it sounds kind of corny, like, whatever old guy but it's like, like there's two people I know that are no longer here because of an accident. And, and I mean, that's, I mean, that's the reality, we really, we really do need to test and make sure and shut stuff off. Zach and I were talking to a former colleague the other day, and he says, We shut it all off, we there was no way that we're going to do anything live because of arc flash. And I mean, now with our with the shock hazard, absolutely, that's the same thing we have to we have to turn things off. And if you are in any way doubting your testing material, like the Voltec, or a voltmeter, right, you're supposed to, like you said, first verify that you have a working meter, verify that the testing tool that you're using is, is working. And verifying that something works is something we rarely do. You can get those rubber gloves, but of course, you have to test those rubber gloves and have them inspected as well, right? I mean, we can't, we can't forget about this. Because yeah, just like you said, that one shock could be, it could be life changing.

John Knoll: 36:15

Yeah, it could could lead to you, not being able to remember the name of your wife's coworkers, then she gets frustrated, and then you get angry. And the next thing you know, you're getting divorced, you know, it could lead to a suicide. The one of the scariest things that I heard was a man that I was talking to who also has these symptoms. He's he's gone on and repaired. But he was always in charge of a lot of electrical workers. And he said, I wish management would have known because we had more suicides throughout my career than I would like to admit. And myself again, one of the biggest symptoms of this is depression and anxiety. And I've had my own suicidal thoughts that I have I've had to deal with. And that's the problem. When the apex of this injury, it's number one, you have memory issues, you might not even remember that list of symptoms that I rattled off earlier, you might feel like you're going crazy, there was multiple times where I didn't know I don't know how to explain what I was feeling. But the only way that I could stop the crazy that was in my head was going to sound deprivation tanks, those floating tanks, they saved my life, life more than I would like to admit. Because it wasn't even the pain at that time that was driving me to those thoughts. It was the fact that it felt like my brain was scrambled. You just couldn't figure out what was happening. I've recently been connected with a man who are a man's family who, in 2017, he received a shock in Texas, I had a friend on LinkedIn asked me if I could connect with them. Because this man has gone into Great Depression, he can't sleep, he has chronic pain, he can't sit and he's self medicating on alcohol every night just so he can get to sleep. And I'm happy that I did that have done the advocacy I have. Because I've come across more men than I would like to admit that have that story since I've done it. You know, this doesn't happen to plumbers, it doesn't happen to a lot of other trades. You know, it's an occupational hazard for us electrical shock and we need to address it, we need to, we need to look at it like smoke inhalation and firefighters and asbestos exposure in the construction industry. We need to set guidelines because right now, there is no guidelines and WCB for electrical injury. They rely on their medical experts. And as I have said, their medical expert in my case forgot about the literature. I filed a complaint with the College of Physicians and Surgeons on that medical expert and the College of Physicians and Surgeons found enough problems with her single paragraph statement that she's under now under a two year medical review with them.

Jason Cox: 39:10

Yeah, it sounds like there's a whole lot of I mean, there. Yeah, in the big picture. There's a lot going on there. But let's kind of just bring that back to, to the worker, the electrician, the journeyman, I mean, many of us journey person. Many of us that may have learned something today. What's your advice to that worker that happens to get shocked today? What should they do?

John Knoll: 39:40

Well, the first thing that you can do is report it, report it file a report. The easiest thing you can do depending on the company as you send an email to your boss and you'd BCC yourself and your doctor. But you have to hold on to that you need that record or else it gets extremely hard.

Jason Cox: 39:57

We definitely need to document up, right? Like, a lot of times in the field, like, I write down everything and you'll cover your ass, like write down everything, make sure it's documented. And yeah, like emails, for sure will timestamp where that information is. So yeah, you got to keep track of that. And I'm just as guilty as most people, I can only ever say that I've reported one of my shocks. And of course, that shock was was just an incident where I was concerned. And I yearly, during my physical, bring it up with my doctor just to say I just would like to just check and see if everything's okay. But I mean, so far knock on wood. Nothing's come back. But I mean, the doctor might, my general practitioner just might not even be familiar with it with these symptoms and this injury. So

John Knoll: 40:55

most doctors aren't actually I'm lucky enough that when I went to my company, I built homes for some very predominant people in the healthcare industry. And I've been able to share a lot of this research with the CEO of one of the largest health boards in our country, as well as another doctor, that's a public figure in Edmonton. I had a very fortunate experience as a tradesman. And I made a lot of connections. And I kind of think that's one of the only reasons I've survived as long. And, you know, I'm not a religious man. But I think maybe this is what I was meant to do was to be able to bring awareness to this injury because, you know, there's not many people that at the age of 23, they get asked to sit sit on the executive board with the owners of the largest companies in Alberta. You know, at the age of 23, I had an equal vote with the owners of the biggest companies in our industry, you know, all the way up until when I was 27. I was the youngest chapter, president of the Electrical Contractors Association of Alberta's Edmonton chapter. You know, I stood up in front of all of those men 10 months and out of the year, and I delivered, so entire chapter meetings for them. You know, for a lot of other guys, if they would have gone to their employer and said, I had these injuries or, you know, talked about this or gone to WCB. Those people might not have believed them, they would have been classed as a malingerer. But for me, you know, I was a very high achiever early in my 20s. And people recognized it, they saw the drastic decline in my life, my mental health, and they believed me. You know, one of the only reasons that I think I got as far as I have is because when I started encountering as many problems as I was in our system, I reached out to the board, and they did their own internal investigation into this and they found it true unjust, and they wrote a letter on my behalf to the labor minister, requesting that I get an IME through Sunnybrook Hospital. Despite that, I was never provided the opportunity for an IME. But it's one of the reasons I think I was believed as much as I happen.

Zack Hartle: 43:14

And an IME is just for those of us who don't know,

John Knoll: 43:19

Independent Medical investigator exam, okay, so essentially, if you when you go into a compensation system, they're going to send you to the own doctors for an independent medical exam. They sent me to two of their doctors, psychologist and a neurologist, the psychologists had actually bet against me getting a diagnosis through Dr. yassky, he had called me a narcissist. There was so much defamation in that I me that I don't even want to go into the details of the neurologists was a lot better. He just stated that there's nothing to show but earlier on, it was already proven or pulled by to them by Dr. yassky that there is no scan that can actually identify this issue. I was sent for an MRI and MRIs have different levels. There's a level three a level five, and a level seven. Level five is extremely high, and it's the highest that we have in Edmonton and I had a full MRI on my spine and my brain and just like they were told nothing came up. I had nerve conduction studies I had every single exam done on me and nothing showed signs of this and that's exactly what's supposed to happen is there's only a small percentage that will actually have scans that show stuff

Zack Hartle: 44:49

that's tough. You use the use the word before and it's the invisible injury in it. I mean obviously makes it very difficult to spot out. So this, this and initiative of yours to raise awareness is it's huge, right? And you've been doing that now my understanding is last year and a bit, you've been kind of trying to raise this awareness, mostly on LinkedIn. But how's that going? What, what do you do? And what do you where do you hope that this takes you in your advocacy for this injury?

John Knoll: 45:19

Well, through LinkedIn, I had the opportunity to raise awareness across the world, I've connected with people in England and Australia and United States and in Canada, in Iran, multiple countries across the world. And I've been able to bring it to their attention. I had approached the Electrical Contractors Association, ask them to ask Dr. yassky to deliver the keynote speech. And the President had invited him to do so. And I got a lot of great responses after I had members in the association. Honestly, really think it was a stupid idea to have Dr. yassky, deliver that keynote speech. And then I had letters mailed to me thinking that he did, because they're understanding that some of the things they had gone through in their past or experiencing currently are from this injury. I get to speak with me and Terry Becker are going to the I triple E Electrical Safety workshop in Jacksonville, Florida, in 2022. And doing the poster presentation, where I'll get to bring more awareness into this injury. I've had interviews done with the Ontario electrical League. I've had interviews done with Grace technologies, I've had two articles written and published in multiple countries related to my story and this injury. And for me, I should have a decision a final decision by August 30, on this injury, and that will, they will be 511 days of fighting and advocating for myself and others. And I don't know about you, but I'm a guy that likes to work, even though I can't physically do the work I used to. It's been the hardest thing sitting on my butt for 511 days and screaming at a computer screen trying to bring awareness to this injury.

Zack Hartle: 47:13

Well, it's it's obviously working. I mean, we found out about you and your know your name as well known, I think within the industry and the work that you're doing so.

Jason Cox: 47:25

Yeah, thank you once again. Yeah, sorry. I slip. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. It's, you're you're definitely I'm definitely changing the way I conduct myself with some electrical now, just from what you said, I was so complacent. I had no idea. But yeah, I mean, I never thought that I would learn what I learned in the last week here, after reading through a lot of your information on LinkedIn. So thank you so much.

John Knoll: 47:58

Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways of the UCA keynote was the plea, literally a plea from Dr. yassky to establish a Canadian electrical Injury Network. And because of that, the association has now taking it has now taken it national. And this is being discussed within CECA the Canadian Electrical Contractors Association. Because the scariest part is back in 2013. This was relevant in Ontario. But again, still guys would not really hang on to this message. I had emails from people that had worked with the Electrical Safety Authority of Ontario, saying, I can't believe this hasn't gained traction yet. So in 2021, when I started doing what I did on LinkedIn, I had people reaching out to me saying we've known about this since 2013. And I am ashamed to say that it hasn't gained the traction that it needed. Well, thankfully, maybe it just took one stubborn guy.

Jason Cox: 48:59

You know, it really did. It really did. I mean, that's just the way it is. Yep. Just deal with it. Come on, keep working. Right, those attitudes have got to change now. And I mean, Zack, and I would agree that like learning never ends, you're continuously learning. So. So I think a whole lot of our industry is is I mean, this is, this is important. You need you need to, to to be aware of the possible side effects of being shocked. And I mean, those shocks are low voltage shocks. I mean, I mean, if the doctor said licking a battery of batteries, nine volts, right? I mean, so we have to we have to do better for sure.

John Knoll: 49:41

Well, our system runs off of millivolts. And it only takes Milli-amps to cause electroporation and your cells.

Jason Cox: 49:50

Yeah, I mean, years ago, what was a GFI? What was an AFCI? I mean, we are changing so maybe it's just clear Elliott's not fast enough. So it looks like the industry and society and government and everything needs to adapt to these changes. And I mean, my goodness, if if it's already being addressed in other provinces, that's very frustrating, because I mean, it should be, it should be global.

John Knoll: 50:18

It shouldn't be. And I'm hoping what I'm doing is, you know, working towards that. And one thing that I want to really note out there, because manufacturers are a huge part of being able to push safety too. We have manufacturers, we have contractors, there's a plethora of people within our electrical industry. And this should be a time that they're jumping on to mandate GFCI protection. You know, especially in residential, every single receptacle in residential needs to be Arc fault protected, it's $7, more for AFCI GFCI protection. So in my opinion, we should be GFCI protecting every receptacle in residential, and honestly, every 20 amp receptacle in commercial and as well, you know, people might look at GFCI receptacles as a nuisance, but they're only doing what they're supposed to do. If you have a GFCI. That's not resetting. Well, your installation needs to be looked at because there's a potential hazard for somebody there.

Jason Cox: 51:18

Well, people used to think these seat belts in cars were a nuisance, and they'd moved them to the side when they sat on them. And I mean, that behavior has changed. So we definitely need to change our behavior. And thanks for bringing all that to us. I've learned a lot, even today, and after doing all my research on your website. Zack, do you want to finish this off?

Zack Hartle: 51:39

Yeah, so I just want to say you know, of course, John, thank you so much for being here. If people want to find out more, obviously, this is a topic that is so deep and there's so far you could go into it. Where can people find you if they'd like to reach out to you? And where can people find out more about this topic?

John Knoll: 52:00

Well, right now, a lot of the medical papers are hard to find I have copies of a lot of the medical papers given to me by the practitioners that hadn't done them. But you can look for me on LinkedIn, my LinkedIn is John Knoll, CME PEC, first name John JOHN. Last Name KNOLL, or you can email me directly at johnknollpec@gmail.com, and I'm happy to provide as much support as I can for others out there, because the scariest thing is looking for a diagnosis and not being able to find it, at least once you understand the issues that you're experiencing, you can start working on them. It wasn't until this year that I started getting put on medication that helps.

Jason Cox: 52:51

And so obviously, I mean, if you're having symptoms, I mean, also just talk to your doctor, right? Like you mentioned, hey, if you're getting a shock, contact your your boss, your employer documented, send yourself an email. And then I mean, go see a doctor so that they can help you out with with these conditions for sure.

John Knoll: 53:11

You really need to again, talk to your doctor about it, but make him aware of the Sunnybrook Hospital and reach out to them. Because your doctor might not do that he might not believe you, you know, I begged doctors prior to send me for MRIs, I now know they would be pointless. But every doctor that I've seen, again, has called me healthy as a horse. Even the man that I connected with in Texas, it's the same story. He's gone doctor, to doctor to doctor. And they all tell them there's nothing wrong because they just don't understand this injury. So you need to educate your doctor, because they don't know about this injury.

Jason Cox: 53:46

All right, that's a good piece of advice to maybe work with work with your doctor. Don't just depend on them, I guess.

Zack Hartle: 53:55

And that's a really great point. Also just, you know, getting involved with your doctor and bringing them some information, right. And just knowing that in this battle, I guess that you're not alone, right? There is other people out there and resources, you just might have to dig a little bit to find those. That help, right. And I we're gonna kind of wrap up here. I mean, as you can tell from our conversation today for listening, this is a topic that can go on so, so deeply, right? There's so much to know and so much changing in the world of you know, the long term effects of electrical shock. So, if it is something you're dealing with, you know, reach out to someone who looked around, get help. And as John mentioned, you know, reach out to him on LinkedIn. Look on his LinkedIn page. There's dozens of resources there articles, videos, things like that, that are very informative on this topic. As far as the podcast goes, thank you so much yet again for listening. If you haven't yet, make sure you subscribe to get those new episodes. We come out with a new one every second week. We'd love to hear from you too if you have suggestions for future shows you can reach out on LinkedIn to Jason or I or Facebook or Instagram @wattsthewordpodcast. thanks so much for listening keep yourself safe out there and if you can somebody else too